Layperson’s perspective and criticism credentials

“Newbies should be seen and not heard”

Our long-time reader @red-queen-on-the-heathen-throne recently brought up important point we never put to words on BABD. It’s related to the “You never played/saw/read this (so shut up)!” rhetoric.
Namely, it’s the fact that perspective of someone who never consumed media in question is just as (if not more!) valid as the fans who knows all the lore, including Thermian arguments which supposedly justify bad design  decisions. 

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If a design isn’t good enough to communicate its narrative purpose to someone completely unfamiliar with the story behind it

(so each and every bikini armor falls under this), it fails as a design. As Red Queen puts it:

It’s not the player’s job to figure out what the designer is trying to actually tell them, as opposed to taking what is being communicated through this image at face value, before the game even begins.

And continues:

If this is what the game chooses to present to people who don’t know anything about the game yet, maybe don’t be quite so flippant about it when people get the wrong idea. Because then it actually matters that they don’t know anything about the game. 

So truly, insight of someone who doesn’t know yet how an element that looks ridiculous is explained in-universe (or even by the creators, in some additional material), is quite valuable, as it sheds light on potentially problematic things that lore-savvy fans and creators aren’t capable of noticing. 

Also please remember that parody/satire needs to keep their intent even more clear than stuff that plays the same tropes straight, otherwise Poe’s Law and “ironic” reproduction happens instead of insightful criticism.

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“Hand me your geek card!”

We’re often accused by detractors of not having credentials to talk about (usually) a game we’re criticizing, because we supposedly never played it. 
Putting aside a fact that with three of us being huge nerds and pop media consumers, at least one would be somewhat familiar (unless the product is super obscure) – why would that be relevant? No matter if we know the title well or just superficially, our criticism of female visual representation is always the same.

In-depth familiarity of a story behind combat lingerie hasn’t yet once made us ashamed of our words and deeds. If anything, the more we know about any particular Thermian argument, the better we are at picking it apart.
So asking us to “do our homework” before we comment will make the commentary far more critical, not more lenient.

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Whether or not we actually do comprehensive research for any particular piece of media depends on many factors, like: 

  • how influential versus obscure the media in question is
  • how interesting the excuses for skimpy female costumes in it are
  • if we’re already familiar with it beforehand
  • if there’s a Wiki for it
  • if a submitter provided some info
  • how much time we have at the moment

So while we try to at least look up everything we talk about, the amount of lore-heavy commentary (and its relative accuracy) varies from post to post.

Because, again, as we put it in our FAQ, this is not a full review blog, but one discussing character and costume design in the very specific context of in-story combat and meta-level sexism.
Finishing a game or knowing a TV/comic series full storyline isn’t necessary for us to point at a fictional lady who goes sword fighting in two pasties and a chainmail thong next to dudes in heavy plate armor and say this is an absurd image. It just is. 

~Ozzie 

Comic-only rebloggable post HERE

Tidy Up Tuesday #69

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Long post this time around as there’s a few issues:


If you know female developers working on indie games and incorporating bikini armor or similar tropes is to, at the appropriate opportunity express your concerns as concerns for their production – and let them decide on how important it is to them.

If they’re interested that’s great, if not, then it is very unlikely that their production will have a profound impact on the market and she could very well have her own personal reasons for it.  Personal projects are just that, personal.


However, if you are creating a game or similar production and you want to make it as accessible and welcoming as possible to as wide an audience as possible then we recommend researching the works of those talk about these things already.

And many others.  Also if your production is to feature someone from a marginalized background that is not your own and be prepared to pay them.  Consultants are generally not as expensive as you might think but can add massive value to your production.


In terms of actually working for a company in the industry and managing to be a positive influence, then that’s the very complicated balancing act of expressing yourself and respecting your employers. (If you work out how to master that, please tell me how).

But largely the best advice I can give if you happen to be in a company meeting is to be prepared to talk about ways they add or detract value to the production and be eager to show your working.  Example:

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These are some illustrations that Casper Konefal used to help get Cassandra Pentaghast’s unconventional look approved. (source, Casper’s ArtStation)


We are aware that the blog is apparently flagged as restricted/adult content by Tumblr… though because it’s Tumblr it’s still unclear what this does everywhere.


While we do realize that lack of helmet is often used for character identification and usually touches heroes of any gender – it is still can be (and is) used for reinforcing double standards. Therefore “No head protection” remains on the Female Armor Bingo, even if it doesn’t always delegitimize a female costume design.


Things we addressed before: 


– wincenworks,

~Ozzie

 & -Icy

witchesandmushi:

jackvambrace:

Ragingghostsbunker asked which outfit was the worst in the game, so I may as well get these out of the way. This is the conjurer raiment. The male sorcerer looks kinda like a neon sign explode all over a german fairy tale dapper gentlemen The female sorcerer appears to be wearing a bikini with a single long belt starting at her shoulder and wrapping down her leg, and then a single thigh high sock which appears to be made of smaller belts.

@bikiniarmorbattledamage

Wow. Soul Sacrifice is not great at female gear but what the actual fuck is this?

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So, the female armor is a bingo-scoring pure absurd, while the male one is exceptionally ugly. Could this design fail at any more levels?

~Ozzie

Did someone look at the pipe dream minigame in Bioshock and think, “now THAT would be a good look for a breasted person!” cause that’s the only explanation I will accept for this monstrosity.

And if it’s not 10 year old minigames and portables, then it’s… umm……. hmm

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…. I have questions but I don’t actually want to know the answers.

-Icy

Doobie Doobie Doo-Wop: “Why do you hate the shape of breasts in plate armor so much?”

Doobie Doobie Doo-Wop: “Why do you hate the shape of breasts in plate armor so much?”

martwhim:

Since people often ask “Alright, well this is fantasy!  Why can’t we have boob shapes in plate armor?!”  I decided to make a post about it.  My frustration hasnothing to do with historical inaccuracy and I’m all for imagination and freedom— but I’d like to (very quickly) illustrate this for you:

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I purposely over-emphasized the shape of the two spheres in the armor so you can really think about this. 

Look at the shape of the blue cups and the green line, think about the form of that on some beautiful ornate plate armor.  A female warrior is charging into battle.  In the midst of this, she trips!  Or is pushed over, or takes a blow to the chest!  So long as the force is on the front of her torso it really doesn’t matter for the conclusion:

She feels a sharp pain in her chest and hears the cracking of bone!  Oh no, what’s gone wrong?  Well she doesn’t have time to think about that, because she is now dead.

Her sternum just fractured, take another look at that green line, that’s where all of the pressure from any front impact is going to go because of the shape of the two blue cups made for her breasts.  The rest of the armor slides around your body, but because of the two cups for breasts that are often made in fantasy female armors, the pressure point is directly on the sternum.  The breasts are not going to stop the force of you falling onto them, and because of that the metal is going to push in and bash you in the sternum.

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What does a fractured sternum do?  Why it goes right into your heart and lungs of course.

(that was the sound of all of my followers inhaling a sharp breath between closed teeth at once)

Here are three great solutions to the problem:

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GREAT EXAMPLE OF FANTASY TORSO ARMOR THAT IS FEMININE BUT FUNCTIONAL:

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It is usually possible to bind the breasts when fighting if they really are far too large to fit into regular looking armor (there’s padding anyway), but most women can actually fit into a similarly sized male counterpart’s armor quite easily.  Even if that’s the case, the armor can be made to have a curve to it without putting all of the pressure in one area, which was actually a style of armor for quite some time as shown here:

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And don’t even get me started on the dreaded “Cleavage Window”

The “Cleavage Window” defeats the purpose of having any armor on your torso because it means you’re just going to be leaving open the vital organs the rest of the armor is trying to protect.

If people are going to protect themselves and not have much torso protection, invest in some blocking lessons, because the best defense is to not get hit at all.  There are also advantages to not having plate armor, and plate armor was often really expensive anyway.

— Edit —

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supaslim replied to your post“Why do you hate the shape of breasts in plate armor so much?”

I’d also like to add that boob bulges direct blows straight to the sternum as well, rather than making them glance to either side. Good post.

This week’s throwback: one of the very first posts I reblogged and a big inspiration for BABD even existing. It is THE Boobplate Post – one with the most comprehensive explanations why semi-spherical individual compartments for each boob in armor are an awful, awful idea. 

To reiterate briefly, boobplate:

  • is uncomfortable
  • doesn’t provide breast support that actual bras/corsets do
  • ignores how many silhouette-changing layers of padding go underneath plate armor
  • directs blows to the wearer’s heart (a.k.a. guarantees painful death instead of preventing it)

~Ozzie

see other good articles about impracticality of boobplate: here, here, here. here and here

h/t: @whydontyouhateithere who recently asked about boobplates

While Grimm Fairy Tales is an extremely low-hanging fruit, I couldn’t help but snicker at how “creative” not only the costume, but all of those covers with the same heroine are – at least two poses get reused a lot with very slight modifications, like a closeup. And her expression on a vast majority is all the same.

Also it sums up GFT’s “mastery” at conveying character through their design – I suppose this is meant to be Snow White by the apple motif on her arm-warmer and the vaguely Disney-esque color scheme (aaand that alternative #2 cover).
Though didn’t she wear glasses and dress differently in those comics? Is that… a reboot? No, apparently it’s a sequel series and this is her daughter. Even in a legacy-based relaunch, Zenoscope isn’t capable of changing the status quo. 

But, of course, random conventionally attractive women in battle leotards* posing “sexily” with swords totally tell me all I need to know about this mature take on fairy tale stories and characters.

~Ozzie

I wonder what they could have been inspired by…

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I mean we all knew, but I just wanted to put it here so it highlights the @eschergirls type anatomy.

– wincenworks

That… “outfit”… looks like crap. Tagging this for a livestream somewhere down the line, hope y’all look forward to it.

-Icy


*Should I really call it that? It looks like a mix of lingerie, swimsuit and bodypaint.

So, I have been having this discussion in my fandom, and people defend the bikini armour as being “historical accurate” since some cultures “went naked into battle”. How true is this, actually?

bikiniarmorbattledamage:

It is certainly true some people went naked or near naked into battle, but not alongside warriors in proper armor and not in battle bikinis. There are some other important factors involved in their choice to do so.  Firstly it usually only in cases where they didn’t have access to armor and/or the battles were largely ceremonial or otherwise non-lethal. 

Armor is developed in response to weapons and usually the first forms of defense were shields.  So if you had no nudity taboo and hadn’t developed armor due to lack of resources or lack of regular conflict, you didn’t really have much choice in the matter.  Particularly since your weapons are usually tools that are made for hunting or other work.

In areas where this happened, usually the battles were no war in the sense of systematic killing of the enemy but more demonstrations of strength to intimidate others – usually over a piece of farm land or livestock.  It was used to resolve grievances and sometimes even as a regular sport.

Usually this happened where people needed everyone to work together in order to provide essential, which means you also don’t need any more land than you already control and work every day.  When you have an argument with your neighbours, you settle it to both sides satisfaction so you can resume living next to one another.

The ability to make sophisticated items like bikini armor (which is surprisingly complicated) comes from civilizations where they have sufficient surplus of resources and people they can have specialists who can trade goods and ideas. By the time you reach this level you also a real incentive to try to obtain more and more land.

At that point civilizations can start developing dedicated weapons, training dedicated soldiers (to expand your nation or defend against invaders) and their battles start to involve countless fatalities. Then it becomes worthwhile to begin the cycle of making armor to protect against the enemies weapons, and weapons to beat your enemies armor.

TL;DR: If you’re in a society that has warriors and the know-how and resources to make bikini armor, you’re in a society where your warriors wear actual armor.  There were civilizations that fought nude or near nude, but they didn’t have bikini armor, fancy swords, professional warriors or sophisticated combat techniques.

– wincenworks

Time to bring this back, as the subject of nudity and near-nudity in battle came up in a disappointing video about Barbarians and their lack of armor that was recommended to us. 

So, just to reiterate: going near naked into battle =/= going into battle in a metal/leather/fur equivalent to lingerie, therefore the fact that some real life warriors, in specific circumstances, fought naked is not a historical precedent for bikini armor. Same rules apply also to gladiators

Our advice for designers who want to convey a primitive warrior culture that either just doesn’t believe in armor or uses it just partially is, predictably, amazingly: avoid double standards.

  • Do not assume that a shirtless dude is equally sexualized as a lady in bikini top, because male muscles are sexy, but female nipples are a no-no
  • Question how and why a “primitive”, yet pragmatic culture would develop such a sophisticated and impractical, melee-inappropriate garment as a battle bikini in the first place. Should they even have a nudity/nipple taboo and if so, why wouldn’t they just throw a simple shirt or sarashi-style wrap on women’s boobs?
  • If you actually believe in heroic nudity and aren’t limited by “family-friendly” commercial standards, ask yourself: which of those ladies convey the idea of a berserking, unstoppable badass who needs no armor and which ones of a fancy lingerie model:
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Amazing topless barbarian lady artwork by @partsal​ [x], @yondamoegi​ [x] and @yanavaseva​ [x]

~Ozzie

Just as fully clothed women can be depicted sexily, so can scantily-clad women be depicted as powerful and not sexual. It’s not just about how much skin is showing.

-Icy

avatar-dacia:

dreamersollux:

xylophil:

welcome to video game!!!!!! customize your character; but first, choose your gender:

in case anyone thought this was an exaggeration

TERA is such a bad joke of a game.  And not only that, but female characters all wear super-skimpy outfits and lean way the hell over so that you can see their panties when they run.

I mean, nothing against fanservice (although I prefer mine a bit more equal-opportunity).  This game, however, is just…tawdry.  Like something out of a particularly bad adult manhwa.

Also, I remember a discussion in which the scummy fanboys broke out literally every scummy fanboy derailing tactic in the book (plus a Godwin or two and an accusation of “shaming” the characters).  So…there’s also the matter of the brand of fan it attracts.

@eschergirls, @bikiniarmorbattledamage

Ah, TERA Online. Once upon a time, I played (and enjoyed) the closed Beta, up to the point where I had to interact with a female NPC who literally wore a metal bikini (not chainmail, actual solid metal) whose breasts still swayed–with the armor.

I actually have a mixed attitude toward the designs in the game. On the one hand, it’s all very Male Gaze, creepy, and completely impractical or physically impossible to wear into battle. On the other hand, some of their stuff is actually well-designed (i.e. actually makes use of design principles) and is nice to look at. It’s the kind of stuff I wouldn’t mind seeing at a Haute couture fashion show (though they can’t seem to design shoes for shit).

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[full pic]

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[full pic]

And this swanky mofo, who’s wearing the male version of the above dress (imagine going to a party in these coordinated outfits, hot damn):

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[full pic]

But the game isn’t Project Runway: TERA, unfortunately.

-Icy

I love how not only is @xylophil’s satire spot-on,  but also that @dreamersollux easily found an official game promo pic of exactly what it’s making fun of. 

Fits perfectly with all the other examples of suspicious dimorphism and its parodies we had on BABD so far.

~Ozzie

bikiniarmorbattledamage:

This is why we find it difficult to celebrate Blizzard’s baby steps towards progress – they are already so self-congratulatory about it that they basically gave up before they started.

Okay, yes, baby steps, Blizzard has got a long history of being terrible and a lot unlearning to do.  But they could at least try to show some self-awareness of this.

Dirty Bomb, a game which I feel we have actually tragically under-represented in our positive examples, has managed to incorporate diversity and gear equality without making it a novelty item.  How? By making diversity a genuine priority – that’s why their line up looks more like this:

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– wincenworks

And it’s not only body diversity which seems to be a challenge for female Overwatch characters, so is their AGE!

D.Va is actually the youngest in the whole ensemble (19). Female characters don’t get older than 34 (Mercy), while male ones range from 20 (if you count Zenyatta, a robot) or 25 (Junkrat) all the way up to 61 (Reinhardt).

The overall design of D.Va is perplexing on so many levels, too. What new is she supposed to contribute? Yet another young, thin, conventionally pretty woman in a catsuit… something the game (and the industry as a whole) so totally lacked before! Even her silly pseudonym rubs in that she’s a diva. 
The idea of a Korean professional gamer-turned-mecha pilot is very cool (even if the backstory rips off Evangelion/Pacific Rim), but why make her look so generic… and paint her mech pink? 

My most optimistic guess: one of many Blizzard’s Creepy Marketing Guys saw Zarya and said “So, we’re doing female tanks now? Okay, but next one is gonna be the SEXY tank! And make her more PINK!

~Ozzie

more on Overwatch | more on Blizzard

Remember when Blizzard was doing female characters better in Overwatch?

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Yeah, me neither.

We will be doing a full post about the new Widowmaker skin, but until then, we just wanted to throwback to this post about all the effort Blizzard is putting into their diversity.
It still doesn’t make sense for Widow to wear those clothes because, 

  • a) she is a sniper and that top just screams nip slip; and 
  • b) she’s a sniper, who’s she going to be ‘distracting’ exactly from 2 miles away?

It also just looks really ugly? It really looks like someone designed a practical suit for her, and then Creepy Marketing Guy walked in and told them to cut a third of it off, so they just did, without any design adjustment.

-Icy


edit: Since a lot of replies ignore that the original post is almost 1,5 years old and mentioning newer characters is beside the point Icy is making about Widowmaker, let’s quickly address this: We do acknowledge how Ana Amari is a cool non-sexualized old lady (even if squarely within OW’s established beauty standards) and Orisa is a cool female robot.
That said, there are still problems with how old characters continue to be depicted and adding new heroes doesn’t change that.

~Ozzie

PS: Mercy is 37, not 34 – my bad. She looks neither age, regardless.

pantmonger:

first-law-of-thermodynamics:

fenris-calls:

dah715:

fenris-calls:

dreadnought97:

pantmonger:

Daughters of Persephone!
My women only Space Marine Chapter. Not my best illustration work, but its really starting to take too much time for a quick fan work / colour concept, and I should work on more original works really (though I’ll probably end up doing other fan stuffs :P)

Threw together another quick sketch, playing with the general out of armour look.

I like this interpretation of the black carapace.

It’s going to happen sooner or later

You keep telling yourself that lol

Yeah…

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Just remember there is more ‘Daughters of Persephone’ where that came from 🙂

Warhammer 40k bros are the epitome of fragile geek masculinity* 

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To them, not only women as Space Marines simply can not be a thing, because arbitrary fluff reasonsEmperor God forbid any fan dared to draw, let alone customize some figures of them! Literally.
We’re talking about the Toxic Masculinity Brigade yelling “Heresy!” at anyone who even mentions the possibility of a female Astarte existing.

See all of @pantmonger‘s awesome Daughters of Persephone art + some commentary regarding detractors in one post here.

~Ozzie 

*The @pointandclickbait article can be read here. Sadly, it’s another case when their satire comes painfully close to reality.

ladywater2010:

yosoyleche:

b-tandoodlez:

akaalexia:

powergirlschestnuts:

ohmygil:

I’m actually a little offended because if there were ever a male Strong Female Character

it’d be Nightwing

Isn’t that right Karen?

IM A LITTLE BITTER NEGL dick grayson was doing the strong female character thing IN CANON way before anyone knew who clint barton was but WHATEVER FANDOM 

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WHATEVER

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did I mention this isn’t fanart

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really printed

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ACTUAL POSE IN AN ACTUAL COMIC BOOK

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tits and ASS

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gratuitous and inhuman

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losing clothes since 1980something

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yet fandom still decides that CLINT BARTON is a better male Strong Female Character than this flawless prince smh

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idg why or how that snub happened but I am protesting it

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WE ALL KNOW WHO THE REAL WINNER IS

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and did I mention CANON because

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CANON MALE STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER

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CLEAR WINNER BY A LONG SHOT

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DICK GRAYSON PERIOD THE END

I love Hawkeye, and the Hawkeye initiative, but this post never fails to crack me up.

Artists, what are you doing?

I

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STRONGLY

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AGREE

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WITH

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EVERYTHING.

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Not to mention a villain actually says “I’d know that ass anywhere” when seeing Dick Grayson from behind. 

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@bikiniarmorbattledamage

While it remains debatable how much Nightwing’s amazing body and empowered poses balance out how women around him are depicted, Dick Grayson undoubtedly is the closest that superhero comics have to offer for us as fanservice for readers interested in men. 

The last, “I’d know that ass anywhere” image comes from his solo series that could easily be renamed "The Comic With Actual Male Objectification":

~Ozzie 

edit: Changed the Greyson comic montage to a vertical, more readable image.